Yin Yak The Podcast Episode 2 Transcript

Episode 2: The Art of Not Having the Answer – On Ambiguity, Emotion, and Expression

Guest: Susan Singer | Visual Artist

[Podcast theme music fades in]

 🎙️ Part 1: Yak of the Week + Prologue 

00:09 Yin: Hi, I’m Yin Kreher—and welcome to Yin Yak, the podcast where curiosity has no borders and learning lives at the intersections.

This podcast started in a quiet church hallway. I was standing in front of a painting I didn’t quite understand.

An art professor I knew stood beside me.

“I’m not sure what this means,” I said, gesturing toward it.

He looked at me and simply said, “You don’t have to.”

That moment has stayed with me. 

At work, we navigate ambiguity constantly, whether you’re a designer, a manager, a clinician, or a C-suite executive. It made me wonder if art teaches us to live with ambiguity, mystery, and not-knowing?

I spoke with visual artist Susan Singer, and she offered me something I hadn’t expected.

For Susan, art isn’t uncertain at all. She knows exactly what she wants to express. Art-making for her is both intentional and a form of release.

And so the episode shifted—it became a conversation not just about ambiguity, but also about intentionality, emotional truth, and meditative flow.

Here’s my conversation with Susan Singer.

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01:30 Yin: Hi, Susan!

Susan: Hi.

01:32 Yin: Please tell us a little about yourself.

01:37 Susan: I’m an artist, a visual artist, and my work has to do with whatever is on my mind that I want to explore and learn more about.

 🎙️ Part 2: At the Intersection – Art-Making, Intentionality, Emotion, Meditation 

01:46 Yin: Beautiful. So let’s dive in because I think the way you approach your art holds powerful lessons for how we approach learning and uncertainty. Let’s start with your process. What is that experience like?

02:04 Susan: I started doing art to deal with the horror of going through a divorce and my children were not with me for a lot of the time and I missed them so much I had to do something and I started doing art and once I did that I got connected to a part of myself that made me feel solid and happy and—away from what was so painful in my life. And over time, when I first started doing it, I didn’t know what to create. I didn’t know what to paint. I was working in clay and making jewelry and things like that. And then I started drawing. And the first thing I decided to draw—was myself pregnant. And it was so healing to me to create that because I … 

Unfortunately, my partner was not, you know, I hear some men just saying, oh my God, you’re so beautiful when you’re pregnant. And I didn’t get that kind of response. And so drawing myself and seeing how beautiful I was brought me peace and healing. And after I did a whole series of pregnant nudes, I drew everybody I knew who would let me photograph them and draw them. I worked with scars because my son had an operation and had a really bad scar on his back. It was like six or eight inches long. And I took a photograph of it and then I just had to draw it. And that might sound like a weird response to it, but for me, the act of drawing makes the image go through me. It’s like I’m digesting it. I’m embodying it. I’m integrating it into me. And so drawing my son’s scar helped me come to terms with it, helped me come to terms with his life-saving operation. 

And you know, with the results that would come from having had that. And then I started drawing other people’s scars and they told me the stories about them. And it was just fascinating to learn how people had gotten hurt and how they reacted to it and what it meant to them. And so each series that I do comes out of a place of curiosity, but a lot of it’s about wanting to heal. 

The series I did of 12 naked men, that one was kind of ornery because I was pissed off that women were always naked, you know, or almost naked in ads and stuff like that, and that we’re used to sell everything. And I just thought, well, you never see a naked man. 

And so I decided to draw 12 naked men just from with no heads and chopped off at the groin or below the groin. And it just felt great to kind of objectify men and see how people responded. was ornery, it was playful, it was fun, it was interesting and the responses were really fun to see. 

05:32 Yin: Indeed. So art heals.

05:35 Susan: It does for me, yeah.

05:38 Yin: So you’ve worked with such personal themes as you mentioned, body image, trauma, healing. Do you hope viewers connect with the meaning you intended or have there been times when someone saw something different that still felt meaningful to you?

05:55 Susan: Oh, that’s, that’s a really good question. I do art to heal parts of myself. So when I did Beyond Barbie, which was 50 female nudes, that was to present to society what real women look like, and that we’re all gorgeous. And of course, part of that was, and so am I. And to come to terms with what my own body looks like and what others had said to me growing up and you know, what society says to it. And so I did those pieces for me, but I also did them because I wanted to provide those images to society. And so I knew what I was saying with it, but it was really wonderful to have them all on display and have people come into the space and cry.

They were so touched or get furious and stomp out and say, I’m not going in that room until those stupid naked women are out of there. There’s, once the pieces are done, what a person thinks about it is up to them. And it’s, it’s like letting my child go out into the world. I can’t control what my kids do. I can’t control what people think about my art. And I try not, I choose not to take it personally if people don’t like it.

I understand that that says a whole lot more about them than me. You know, if I’m pleased with my work then and feel that it’s good, like with Beyond Barbie, there literally were people who would not rent the room in the gallery anymore because there were all these gross naked women in there. Yeah, nudity is tricky here in the United States. 

So yeah, I love to hear what people think about my artwork. It’s just, I get curious. I just am curious and try not to take it personally. 

07:58 Yin: So has there been a time when someone told you what they saw in your art and it surprised you or taught you something about perception?

08:08 Susan: I haven’t done much abstract work. I think that question probably would pertain more to abstraction. My work tends to be pretty realistic, and so what you see is what you see.

08:21 Yin: What about landscapes? Do people always see it in the same way?

08:26 Susan: I think so. I haven’t, I can’t think of a time that somebody’s perceived it so differently from how I do. They seem to experience the same energy that I’ve put into it, like if a piece is joyful or if it’s threatening or if it’s about the space in the sky. think that’s conveyed pretty clearly. Yeah, I can’t really think of a time that people have seen it so differently that I was just like, huh? Yeah.

08:27 Yin: I remember you used to draw those tangles, they call zentangles. Yes. Do people see it in a certain way that’s different from you?

09:00 Susan: Yeah, Zentangles. I guess, I mean, they say, oh my God, I can’t believe you did that. How long did that take you? And for me, that’s an irrelevant question because the process of it was so fascinating. And so, yeah, I guess that’s one thing where they just can’t imagine. 

Oh, I’ll tell you one thing is I do a lot of figure drawing and I just go and do it live. And I think there are people like with Beyond Barbie and the 12 Naked Men where people are just like—

Why are you drawing all these naked people? I don’t know what they’re judging me as, but for me, it’s just fascinating. It’s such a beautiful form and there are an infinite number of poses that people can strike, an infinite number of ways that the light can hit people. And I just find it intriguing and the process makes me happy.

I’m completely absorbed in it and can’t think about anything else. And so when people judge it or feel uncomfortable with it, I’m bemused and curious and, you know, maybe a little bit judgmental that they have a problem with it, but that might be defensive. Yeah.

10:26 Yin: Well, your art is introspective. So how does art help you make sense of the world? I think you touched on that a little bit at the beginning.

10:33 Susan: Yeah, when I was first starting, that was when I really took on topics that I needed to figure out or look at or deeply inspect. And so it was very healing. Now, sometimes when I’m drawing, I will, you know, I have feelings and they might not be related to the art. But for example, if I’m doing landscapes and pastels, I will brush the pastel kind of loudly and loosely against the paper. It’s like… [Susan mimics painting sounds]

And that’s a great way to get energy out. And so it leaves me feeling, you know, like running five miles or something like that. Just, that felt so good. And then I get to see it. And it makes sense of the world. 

I think it’s about the process of doing it. I don’t know that it’s about the subject matter as much as just, as I sit and do art, it’s a very meditative process, normally. 

And so I’m just in the flow. And while that’s happening, I’m more relaxed. And sometimes I’ll come away and have answers to concerns, or I’ll have worked through some feelings that I was having, I’ve gotten to a calmer place. Yeah, sometimes, you know, I’m thinking if I don’t have music on or a podcast or something, then my thoughts are flowing by on the side. It’s like, Einstein said that, or no, Edison said that he would take a nap and he’d wake up with an answer. He just needed time for his brain to relax. And I think that’s what it does for me. I just get into a flow and feel good. And feeling good helps me make better sense of the world because I’m not as anxious or upset or mad or whatever. And I can address something from a more centered place.

12:25 Yin: It sounds like a lot of your work brings calm and clarity—some sessions even feel cathartic, like a release. But I imagine it can also stir things up. What’s it like when a session becomes more of an emotional release than a meditative flow?

12:43 Susan: Okay, a cathartic session is a different thing. That would be, I call those blowout pieces. And it takes me a lot of courage to get in front of the easel at that point, because it means I’m going to face what I’m feeling and it’s going to come out on the canvas and it’s going to be ugly and I’m not going to like it. And I don’t like how it feels. So the lead up to it is like two weeks. And then. 

So then once I get in the studio, it’s maybe 20 or 30 minutes of just, it’s often writing the F word and growling and screaming and I don’t want anybody anywhere nearby when I’m doing it. And I don’t want anyone seeing the work when I’m done.

That is not work that I show in public. It’s, it’s, it is pure emotive expression that I do. It’s like throwing up, you know, it’s just, it’s just a explosion, projectile vomiting. It’s just, you know, it’s just the emotions. And I think emotions are beautiful and I think they’re important and everything else. But when I get really angry or really upset, I don’t enjoy those emotions as much as others.

14:03 Yin: You mentioned that you paint realistic pieces. So during such cathartic sessions, are these paintings also realistic or are they more abstract then?

14:17 Susan: Yeah, the only thing realistic on it is the words. I mean, I did one where I did, I was trying to come to terms with something that happened when I was younger and there were some body parts on it. And, you know, that needed to be there. But usually, usually it’s just scrolling, you know, it’s just feeling the…the material, usually pastels, feeling that material scrub against the paper and the release of the action of my arms. And, you know, I’m always standing up when I do it. So, yeah, it’s just, it’s just about feeling it. And I guess some people would go out and chop a tree down. Some people would run five miles. Some people would scream, you know, primal therapy or something.

For me, creating art about it, it’s not art. Putting pastel to paper is just how I get it out and how I integrate it and how I can see. I mean, it’s visual. I can see what I’m thinking. I can see what I’m feeling. If I go back and look at them now, I can look at something from 20 years ago and be right back there and know what that was about.

15:28 Yin: Is it fair to say that you see art making as a form of inquiry or even meditation?

15:36 Susan: Yeah. You know, if I’m working a series, then it’s like, I want to know about this. What is, what does a person look like who’s 300 pounds? I am so curious what her body looks like. What do men’s penises look like? I want to try. I just want to see like a wide range of them or what do all these pregnant bellies look like? It’s yeah, it’s an inquiry or how do I draw trees? I don’t know how to draw trees. How do I create the sensation of what it was to be in Iceland looking out at that incredible meadow? How do I make those rocks look like they feel? So that would be the inquiry part. 

The meditation would be more when I’m doing Zentangles because I don’t have to actively make decisions about what I’m doing. It’s a pattern. And so I just, I know what’s coming next.

So, you know, I’ll sit there and do the same marks for 10 or 15 minutes. And that is meditation at its purest.

16:36 Yin: Interesting. Now, if an educator or learning designer asks you, how can I help students be more comfortable when they don’t have all the answers yet? What might you suggest?

16:51 Susan: Get curious. I mean, I think that’s the biggest thing. That’s not necessarily an art thing, but when I don’t have the answers, I journal. I sit and I do free writing. So I don’t worry about the grammar or anything like that. I just, just get it all out. And I think that’s the most effective tool I know for starting to get clarity. I also pray.

When I’m journaling, I write letters to God and say, what the hell? What do I need to know, man? What is going on? And then I listen, I do automatic writing and I just try to let in the answers. 

And I think teachers could possibly bring in some of those opportunities. I think in terms of drawing, there’s some great exercises to draw to music. I’ll do this with my students sometimes. I’ll have them have different materials in front of them. So maybe a Sharpie and a charcoal and some little pencils and I’ll have them divide the paper or have five or six pieces of paper and then I’ll play different kinds of music like a Wagner opera. You know, it’s like real loud and and dramatic and let them respond to that.

And then maybe I’ll do some yoga music that’s very quiet and peaceful. And it’s a way of helping students get attuned to their emotions and then let them have something to do with the emotions as they’re coming out, because they’re drawing. so sometimes I’ll do that with music and sometimes I’ll do it, I’ll say, just draw what it feels like to be angry or draw what it feels like to be at a picnic with the person you love best in the world. I’ll give scenarios. And I think that those are really great exploratory kinds of exercises because they’re open-ended, there’s not a wrong answer, and they give people an opportunity to be with experiences that we often in our society avoid at all costs. So those are some things I do bring into my teaching.

18:58 Yin: I think there’s some things I could learn from here too. In relation to that question, what could classrooms or even leadership spaces learn from the studio about observation, patience, or process?

19:12 Susan: I love that. I think learning how to draw is an incredible tool for anyone. I think because it’s a skill. It’s something people think that either you know how to do or you don’t. And that’s just not true. It’s a skill. You can learn it like you learn a language or anything. But learning to draw is about learning to see. And so the first exercise I have students do in drawing is draw their hand. And we do something called blind contour drawing. I don’t allow them to see what they’re drawing. They just look at their hand the whole time and draw without seeing what they’re drawing. And it makes them observe their hand in such incredible detail. They get lost in each line on the hand and each curve and everything.

And when students leave the class and they come back like a week or two later, they’ll go, the whole world looks different. I didn’t know tree trunks weren’t brown. I thought they were brown, but they’re like gray and I see green in them and there’s some blue in them. The world looks so different. I mean, clouds, oh my God, have you ever seen the clouds up there? And I think awakening for people, the ability to see what is really there. So to have an experiential, observational experience of the world as opposed to knowing that a tree trunk is gray or knowing that the sky is blue. It makes people question what they thought they knew because when you look at something like it really is, it’s very different than what you think it could be. And I think that helps people be more open-minded. It helps them be more curious. It helps them be less threatened by what’s new or unknown because they have, develop observational skills. So that, I’d love to see that go into the classroom everywhere.

🎙️  Part 3: Mic Drop (Reflection + Epilogue) 

21:12 Yin: That’s really important and very beautiful. Now, before we wrap, we always leave listeners with a mic drop moment, a quote, or idea to carry with them. 

Your words bring me back to that church hallway and remind me how much learning happens in the spaces we can’t fully explain. So in an age of AI and instant knowledge, maybe our role as designers, educators, and humans is to create more of those spaces, to teach not just for answers, but for curiosity, as you mentioned, for wonder, for meaningful noticing. 

Before we close, what words would you like to leave our listeners with?

21:55 Susan: I wish for each of you the opportunity to discover something anew. Yeah. In a way you’ve never known it before.

22:09 Yin: Thank you, that is so beautiful. Thank you, Susan.

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🎙️ Epilogue

22:09 Yin: So what did we just hear from Susan? A few things stood out:

First, art often begins from a place of intention and certainty, but how it’s perceived is beyond the artist’s control. There may be multiple meanings and Interpretations, and part of the work is learning to accept and live with that. 

Second, art can hold what we don’t yet have words for. It’s not always about beauty. It’s about processing what’s hard to hold and integrating what we’ve yet to understand. 

Third, true observation changes us. When we learn to really see, we loosen our grip on the need to know.

Finally, not knowing isn’t a flaw; it’s a doorway to further inquiry. 

Of course, not all ambiguity is welcome. In high-stakes moments, like patient care or crisis response, uncertainty can be risky.

So the goal isn’t to glorify ambiguity, but to know when it invites reflection and when it calls for clarity.

That’s where we’re headed next.

Until then, keep learning at the intersections.

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